Jimmy DeYoung believes that at the rapture of the church (when the church is gathered to be with the Lord) Jesus doesn’t appear in the clouds with great glory. Instead, he believes the church will just disappear in a twinkling of an eye, but is this what the Bible actually teaches?
He claims Revelation 4:1 (“Come up hither”) is describing the rapture of the church. Yet this scripture is just a word to the apostle John to come and see the future. If taken literally, it doesn’t describe the rapture. So when does the rapture of the church actually occur?
If you were to gather together all the New Testament verses on the coming of Jesus to gather his church, you would find certain characteristics repeating themselves over and over again.
- The trumpet will sound. (1 Corinthians 15:51, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
- The sun will be darkened and the moon will no longer give its light. (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, Revelation 6:12)
- The church will be gathered from the four winds. (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, Revelation 7:1)
- The world will see Jesus coming in the clouds with great glory. (Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, Revelation 6:16)
- The gathering of the church occurs after the tribulation period. (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, Revelation 7:9-14)
- The dead in Christ will be raised first and then we’ll all be made incorruptible, in the twinkling of an eye, and will meet Jesus together in the clouds. (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53)
As you can see from the above verses, there is no secret rapture! The gathering of the church by the Lord is always accompanied by trumpets, signs in the sun and moon, clouds, glory, and the revelation of Jesus to the world.
It’s also important to note it happens after the saints are persecuted during the tribulation period. There’s no indication that the church will be taken away before this time of suffering, regardless of how DeYoung claims the church is gone in Revelation 4:1 when John is called “up hither.”
Some pre-tribbers claim that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are referring to the Jews as the “elect” who will be gathered, but then why does Paul give the same description of the rapture for Christians in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18?
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).
These two scriptures aren’t referring to the Jews (supposedly the “elect,”) yet they give the same description of the rapture found in Matthew 24:31.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)
Finally, in the book of Revelation, the order found is as follows:
- Jesus opens the first four seals and the four horsemen of the apocalypse are loosed. As I explained in part one, this is not a time of God’s judgment on the world.
- Jesus opens the 5th seal and the martyrs cry out wanting to know how much longer until the judgment will come.
- Jesus opens the 6th seal and we see all the signs consistent with the rapture of the church: the sun is darkened, the clouds are rolled back, and the world tries to hide from the face of Jesus.
- The angels hold back the four winds and mark the Jews, who go through the wrath of God unscathed, while the church that came out of the tribulation is now before the throne singing the song of salvation.
This picture shows a consistent view of the rapture. No contortions are required to make it all fit together. It’s a simple scenario. The return of Jesus occurs at the sixth seal. At the seventh seal there is silence in heaven for a half hour and then the seven trumpets of judgment are sounded. This is when the wrath of the lamb is poured out on the earth.
The church is here for the tribulation period, but it’s removed before the wrath of God is poured out because “God has not appointed us to wrath.” (1 Thessalonians 5:9) Jesus comes back again with the saints, on white horses, at Armageddon. This isn’t an immediate return, like some claim it must be, but the church is safe with Jesus for the time period while the world is suffering God’s wrath.
Jimmy DeYoung and other pre-tribulation proponents believe they have the only view that can be supported by a “literal interpretation of the scriptures,” but the scripture where they say the rapture occurs (Revelation 4:1) wouldn’t even be able to be taken literally! I really wish that someone would respond with an explanation for how they justify this interpretation.
The pre-tribulation rapture is not as easily supported by scripture as Jimmy DeYoung thinks. In fact, it’s a contortion of the Bible which has little scriptural support!
Good points. I also believe that the pre-trib rapture view is unBiblical and you brought out some points that I hadn’t even considered yet. Just out of curiosity, what are your views on eschatology? Just so I understand where you’re coming from.
I guess I would call myself a pre-wrath person. I believe Jesus is coming again, but I don’t believe we will disappear in the twinkling of an eye. Instead, we will be changed from mortal to immortal in the twinkling of an eye. This means that I believe the rapture is very public and accompanied by Jesus, angels, trumpet blasts, and signs in the heavens. The church will be here for the four horsemen of the apocalypse (which is the church’s tribulation period), but then she’s gathered up and kept safe for the period when the wrath of the Lamb is poured out on the earth. Would this make me mid-trib or post-trib? I guess it depends on how you define “tribulation.” I only know that the church will be gone before the wrath of God is poured out.
I’m always shocked by how sure the pre-tribbers are about their eschatology!
Thanks for the reply. I guess in a sense, we are all “pre-wrath”, all who believe in a rapture, that is. We all believe that Christians will be removed before the wrath of God is poured out, it just depends on when you believe that is I guess I would call myself post-trib/pre-wrath. I believe we are gathered at the “last trump” (the 7th trump of Revelation) and then accompany Jesus at His Second Coming.
Thanks for these posts. When will the next one be coming out?
Pretrib Rapture Pride
Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history) which can be obtained by calling 800.643.4645.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
(Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)
[The foregoing was observed on the stimulating web. Enjoy and share with others.]
Wow. Thank you, Irv. This is a lot to chew on. And since I love history, these are some interesting historical venues to pursue.
[Amen and Bravo, Diana. I enclose this non-copyrighted item I found on the web that I’m sure DeYoung won’t endorse! Lord bless and reward you. You are much needed today!]
PRETRIB RAPTURE STEALTH !
Many evangelicals believe that Christ will “rapture” them to heaven years before the second coming and (most importantly) well BEFORE Antichrist and his “tribulation.” But Acts 2:34, 35 reveal that Jesus is at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His earthly foes at the second coming. And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! They were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
Many don’t know that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into an idolized separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which evangelical scholars overwhelmingly rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice” for more on this, and also Google “Pretrib Rapture Pride.”
Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).
PS – For some final shocks Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”
Wrong on all points on the rapture we will disappear in “the twinkling of an eye” at the last trump,which are obviously sounding in heaven to herald our arrival in. Matthew that was quoted refers to the tribulation saints and the Second coming of Christ……Read the word and the Spirit of God “will guide you into all truth.
“at the sound of the last trump….” I have heard this explained by several Messianic Jews as well as many leading Bible scholars and teachers as the last trump sounded during Rosh Hoshannah (the Feast of Trumpets), now known as the Jewish New Year. The shofar is blown by the priest in a couple different lengths of blows, but the LAST sound of the trump is for as long as the priest has breath…he blows until he can’t anymore. That is what is referred to in 1 Thess. as the “last trump”. It has nothing to do with the trumpets of Revelation–check the context. Following that last trump, the rapture takes place, fulfilling the 5th of seven Jewish feasts. The last two feasts that will be fulfilled are the atonement (Yom Kippur)–resulting in the great tribulation for the Jews (which could be one year or more after the rapture) and others left on earth; and the Feast of Booths (or Tabernacles) will be fulfilled following Jesus’ second coming when He begins His reign in the Millennial Kingdom. “Tabernacle” means ‘dwelling place of God’…thus Jesus will be dwelling with His people for a thousand years while the devil is bound and he is thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:1-10), and the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven. Of course, there are other details in this, but this is “the end” in a nutshell.
Replying to my own comment…I have a correction for the last sentence, which should read…thus Jesus will be dwelling with His people for a thousand years while the devil is bound, and before he is thrown into the lake of fire….
I think the trumpet at Rosh Hoshannah (Feast of Trumpets) and the last trumpet in Revelation could coincide on the same day (just as Jesus was crucified on the Feast of Passover). Then the Jews will “look upon him whom they pierced” and grieve, fulfilling Yom Kippur (the Feast Day of Atonement). The Jews will then be marked for safety during the wrath of God, but then the Jews and Christians will become one and they will both go into the tent with the Lord and celebrate the Feast of Booths. This would fulfill all of the Feasts!
How can the Jews “look upon him whom they pierced” if Jesus returns secretly? Will they see Jesus only at Armageddon? How will they have time to repent before being grafted back into the church? It says in the scriptures that the Jews each go into their own homes and personally repent. (Zech. 12)
Enninhteligg the world, one helpful article at a time.
[Here’s the start of a shocking web article! To see all of it, Google “Pretrib Rapture & Ed Hindson” which can be seen in full on Joe Ortiz’s “The End Times Passover” blog. You’ve been warned!]
What a wishy-washy ingrate Ed Hindson is!
He received most of his doctorates from (non-pretrib) schools like Westminster Theological Seminary.
But Falwell’s deep pockets at close-minded (pretrib) Liberty University bribed Hindson into becoming an alma mater backstabber as well as a slavish pretrib plagiarist.
I discovered years ago that “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (a book dated 1981 and edited by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson) had quietly and monstrously pirated huge portions of George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America”!
MARGARET MACDONALD’S MAIN POINT
By Dave MacPherson
John Darby, Paul Wilkinson, and Thomas Ice are among those who have flunked the Margaret Macdonald test by covering up and misinterpreting what she (as the pretrib rapture originator) actually stated in 1830!
My book “The Rapture Plot” discusses Margaret’s two-part main point (lines 58-63 in her 117-line account): seeing “one taken and the other left” before “THE WICKED” (Antichrist) is “revealed.”
Hal Lindsey’s “The Rapture” correctly says she taught “a partial Rapture” – that only PART of the church will be pretribbed up.
Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” also describes partial rapturists as “pretribulationists,” and their charts show the “church” BEFORE AND AFTER their rapture in the same way Margaret was a “church splitter.” (Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” and “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines.”)
Both John Cardale (in Edward Irving’s journal in Dec. 1830) and John Darby (in his 1853 book) described their visits to mid-1830 meetings Margaret conducted in her home. Darby’s “recollection” was such a mirror of the many details in Cardale’s published account 23 years earlier that I’m convinced that Darby was merely copying Cardale’s details, and Darby listed all of the details except one!
Although Darby mentioned Margaret’s “texts on overcoming” (the “tribulation” or second half of her main point), he deliberately omitted her emphasis on “the coming of the Lord” (rapture) as the church’s “deliverance” before the “judgments coming on the earth” which all visitors, except Darby, admitted was a pretrib event (the “rapture” or first half of her main point)!
Margaret’s visitors included writers for Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch.” Within weeks it reflected Margaret’s unique and original “church/church dichotomy” (“spiritual” church members raptured and “less spiritual” church members left behind) when it saw the “Philadelphia” church raptured BEFORE “the great tribulation” and the “Laodicea” church left on earth.
Well, if Darby could be a revisionist with Margaret’s words, so could Wilkerson and Ice today.
After Joe Schimmel’s Good Fight Ministries produced the “Left Behind or Led Astray?” video (the greatest video exposure ever of pretribism’s dishonesty-riddled history!), Britisher Paul Wilkinson savagely attacked it in an uber-unscholarly way in a video produced by the Berean Call Ministry titled “Left Behind or Led Astray? – Exposed.”
In order to please his think-alike idol, John Darby, Wilkinson deliberately stopped his quotation of Margaret at line 45 so that he could omit the first (pretrib) part of her main point in order to be able to falsely declare that she advocated “a post-tribulation Rapture”!
Thomas Ice has been even more nervy than Wilkinson, his British “twin.” When Ice quoted Margaret’s 117-line account in the Dallas Seminary journal he omitted ALL OF HER MAIN POINT but made up for it by quoting just BEFORE and AFTER it! (Ice’s “PhD” was “earned” at the unaccredited Tyndale Seminary in Texas which, according to World Net Daily, was heavily fined by the State of Texas for illegally issuing degrees – too many degrees for the Texas heat!
Finally, if Ice, Wilkinson and other pretrib escape artists love Jews and Israel as much as they say they do, why don’t they want to be on earth during “Jacob’s trouble” to aid and comfort Jews and others? (Some Google items related to this include “Greatest Hebrew-Christian Scholars NOT Pretrib,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
/ the foregoing was noticed lately on the web. any reactions to it? /
DIANE NEEDS TO LAY OFF THE HAMBURGERS. …. AND YOU ALSO NEED TO CONNECT THE DOTS. GOD WOULD BE UNREASONALBY CRUEL TO PUT REAL CHRISTIANS THROUGH THE TRIBULATION. WHEN THE EARTH IS DARKENED ETC, THAT IS THE SECOND DEATH TIME AND THE TIME OF JUDGEMENT…. WE RETURN WITH HIM (FROM THE RAPTURE) ALL OF US ON WHITE HORSES TO WITNESS THE JUDGEMENT OF THE UNBELIEVERS…… READ FOR YOUR SELF AND ALSO WATCH JIMMY DEYOUNG’S STEP BY STEP THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS…. THEN DECIDE FOR YOUR SELF…. ASK GOD TO GUIDE YOU…. AMEN!
So we run to the place of refuge in Judea.
Later to Jordan after the USA goes down in 1 hour.
I must say, you’ve been connecting the dots nicely Diane
So the trump of FOT does coincide with the last trump. Ta-daa!!!
Tishrei 1 (maybe 2030? LoL) post-trib rapture
Followed by the Bowls.
Tishrei 10 Armageddon
& we add 45 days after that, yes?
Jimmy is dead wrong about a pretrib rapture as the feast of Tabernacles and many other proofs in scripture teach otherwise: