I love Jimmy DeYoung and Brannon Howse. I visit the Worldview Weekend website often. It’s on my “Favorites” tab. I like to hear the latest news and analysis, and I love to hear Brannon’s views, but Brannon recently did a broadcast entitled The Biblical Evidence for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church which I have to take issue with. I honor Jimmy, but I honor the Word more.
First of all, Jimmy claims that the rapture is secret and occurs in the scriptures in Revelation 4:1.
“After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
In this scripture, John is referring to a voice he heard speaking only to himself, which is about to show him the future. It isn’t referring to the entire church. In Revelation 11:12 the words “come up hither” also appear, but they are referring to the two witnesses being taken up after being dead in the street for three days. In one case John is being called up, in the other, the two witnesses are called up, yet the church is never mentioned in either one of them.
Who gave DeYoung the authority to determine that the church, rather than John, is being referred to in Revelation 4:1? Jimmy claims to take a “literal” interpretation of the book of Revelation, yet he takes liberty with this verse and just declares it to be a reference to the rapture! How does Jimmy give scriptural support for his claim that the words “come up hither” are indications of the rapture of the church?
Secondly, Jimmy says the word “church” doesn’t appear between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19. This, he says, is “strong evidence that the church is going to have to leave before the tribulation, making us pre-trib.” Yet, while the word “church” may not appear in these sixteen chapters, the church is pictured several times after Revelation 4. Don’t the following scriptures, found after chapter 4 all reveal pictures of the church?
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held . . .” (Revelation 6:9)
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9-10)
Jimmy says the words “rapture,” “trinity,” and “Bible” aren’t found in the Bible, yet the concepts are still there. I say the word “church” may not appear in Revelation 4-19, but the concept still appears over and over again in those chapters, therefore his allegation that the church is raptured away and gone during the entire tribulation and judgment period, simply because the word “church” doesn’t appear, is a weak argument for the pre-trib rapture.
Finally, Jimmy says that Jesus opens the seals of “judgment.” The Bible never says the seals are “seals of judgment.” This is a man-made term. It just says there are seals that can only be opened by the Lamb (Rev. 5:5). In fact, if the first seals are judgments, or wrath, on the earth, why do the martyrs cry out in Revelation 6:9-10:
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”
The martyrs recognized that Jesus hadn’t begun his judgment yet. They were still waiting for it to come, even after the four horsemen of the apocalypse had been revealed. Therefore, the tribulation period for the saints isn’t a time of judgment for the world; it’s a time of tribulation for the church. There will be a time of judgment and wrath that only Jesus, who is the judge (John 5:22, Romans 2:16, 2 Timothy 4:1), and the Lamb, who took the wrath of God upon himself, is worthy to open.
Even the world recognizes its day of judgment is coming in Revelation 6:15-17.
“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
The time of judgment and wrath upon the earth doesn’t actually start until Revelation 8 after the opening of the seventh seal and a half hour of silence in heaven, after which the trumpets of judgment begin.
There is a time of tribulation for the saints, and a time of judgment or wrath upon the world. They aren’t the same thing. God has not appointed the church to wrath (1 Thes. 5:9), therefore how can the church be suffering under the wrath of God during the time of the tribulation in Revelation 6? Even if you argue that they’re the “tribulation saints,” they’re still part of the church that’s not appointed to wrath!
This leads to the next part of my argument. When does Jesus come for his church? As I hope to show in my next post, He comes for us at the sixth seal, right before the wrath of God is poured out, not secretly “at any moment” as Jimmy claims.
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed (Revelation 6:9-11).
As Jesus Christ opens the fifth seal, He comforts His faithful martyrs who have joined the Church in Heaven; telling them that many faithful servants would follow them into Heaven through great tribulation and various types of martyrdom. This great tribulation of the Church begins in Rome with the martyring of many saints, including Saints Peter and Paul. The evil emperor Nero’s persecutions in Rome corresponds to the time the Roman legions are gathering for the siege of Jerusalem. The Lord warns his followers that these events would signal the beginning of a great tribulation that would continue until His Second Coming: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:15-22).”
The notation to understand in the first sentence, is there because this Scripture like the one that our Lord is referring to, Daniel 9:26-27, continues to be misunderstood by many. The abomination is the Romans who represent Satan’s dominion. The desolation is the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. The holy place is the site where our Lord was Crucified and Resurrected, located outside the walls of the city. When the Roman Legions withdrew for a brief period of time following the death of Nero in A.D. 68, the faithful heeded the warning and escaped the holocaust that ended the lives of untold thousands.
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days (Rev. 12:6).
The woman is true Israel, God’s Church. The wilderness is beyond the Jordan River. The Lord’s preservation of His Church, beginning with the three-and-a-half year judgment of the Jews in Jerusalem and Judea, will continue throughout the great tribulation: “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18).”
The history of the Church is truly the story of the faithful enduring great tribulation: terrible persecutions by the Romans endured until 313; continuous tribulations of heresy and schism overcome by selfless love, conciliar episcopal leadership, and faithfulness to Holy Apostolic Tradition; continuous persecutions by the Islamic powers, endured since the seventh century; and persecutions by the apostate sectarian powers that arose after the great schism of 1054. This tragic falling away, precipitated by papal pretensions, gave rise to ever increasing sectarianism (see II Thes. 2:1-7). Sectarian conflicts eventually led to the atheistic ideologies of Communism and Nazism, martyring more Christians since 1917 than in all the preceding centuries of the Church age. We have lived for over fifty years in the shadow of an earth destroying nuclear holocaust that grows more probable as nuclear weapon technology proliferates. This reality brings weight to our Lord’s words of shortening the time; before the destruction of “all flesh.”
DECEPTION ALERT: “The history of the Church is truly the story of the faithful enduring…continuous tribulations of heresy and schism overcome by selfless love, conciliar episcopal leadership, and faithfulness to Holy Apostolic Tradition.”
This is quite possibly the most clever and seductive way to introduce Catholicism as the “true” church of God that I’ve seen. In reality, there is no line of apostolic succession. The apostles ceased to be. There is no need of popery, and “vicars of Christ” who are “vicariously” reigning “in place of Christ.” The apostles and prophets “laid the foundation” of the church (past tense), on which we now build with “living stones.”
Many historians have erroneously written, “For the first 1000 years of the Christian Church, there was only one Church. Some of those in its leadership were Godly & some were corrupt, but they were all under one banner.” This is false. Constantine declared himself the first “pontifex maximus” (pontifex means “bridge-builder”) and was the high priest of all faiths. These are the true roots of the “Holy Apostolic” Catholic church, which have nothing to do with biblical Christianity, which was always in existence outside of this “official” government-run religion.
The apostasy of today, the prophesied “falling away” in the End Times, has nothing to do with the “apostate sectarian powers that arose after the great schism of 1054.” This schism split the Catholic church, not the biblical church, which was always in existence since the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. The true church was in fact persecuted by the Catholic church and made to look like heretical cultists.
These were predominantly the peoples known as the Waldenses and Albigenses. See http://www.thebereancall.org/content/december-1994-q-and-a-3 and read “The Pilgrim Church” by E.H. Broadbent. http://www.thebereancall.org/content/pilgrim-church-0
One other correction: The interpretation and application of Matthew 16:18, “I will build my church, and the gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” has nothing to with an assault on hell by Christians, or an assault on the church by Satan. It simply means that all who have been born again (who are part of the body of Christ) will in fact be resurrected bodily: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
The “gates of hades” is a reference to death and the grave, which Christ conquered by His blood. So in other words, the verse could read, “the gates of the grave” will not keep the souls and bodies of believers in the ground. This is the triumph of the church: “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4).
And finally, I must point out that Marcus is confused as to the identity of the church. He says, “The woman is Israel, God’s Church.” This is false. This is a form of replacement theology which is a heresy of the Catholic church as well as many protestant denominations. Christians are not “Jews” and the church is not Israel. God’s covenant with Israel and the Jews is eternal. Jews must accept Jesus as Messiah in order to be a part of the church, which is the Bride of Christ.
But tragically, the majority of Jews living during the time of the end will not receive Christ. In fact, Scripture indicates that two thirds of the Jews will perish in the Tribulation except those who flee into the wilderness (Zechariah 13:8-9). “All Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26) refers to those Jews who remain in the land when Christ sets foot on the Mount of Olives (along with all his saints—1 Thessalonians 3:13), at which time the Jews will “look upon [him] whom they have pierced” (Zechariah 12:10).
Clearly Emugene lacks the capacity to weigh the evidence of history. The Roman Catholic Church that began in AD. 1054 had its origins in the European kingdoms of the eighth and ninth centuries. The Popes retained the pagan title Pontifex Maximus and the blasphemous title of Vicar of Christ. The Germanic Franks who constituted the first Roman Catholics, altered the ancient Nicene Creed because of their desire to replace the the Holy Spirit with their Vicar of Christ; the Pope.
The family of Orthodox Christian Churches have suffered great tribulation in preserving the ancient Apostolic Christian Faith in continuity for over 1,980 years. The rejection of conciliar Church governance established by the Apostles in the council of Jerusalem c. AD. 50, is at the core of the reason why Roman Catholics and Protestants are two sides of the same coin. The Roman Catholic pope, and all of the little popes of the ever increasing Protestant sectarianism, think they all know better than the Holy Apostolic Tradition preserved in the Church; New Israel.
The same Scriptures that claim to be inspired by God also affirm that it is the Church, not the Scriptures alone, that is the pillar and ground of the truth (see 1 Timothy 3:15). The evil pride that feeds the heresy of “Sola Sciptura, ” will continue to divide Christians until our Lord returns.
Wow, I’m sorry you’re so confused and entangled in the traditions of men through the Orthodox church. The truth of the matter is, there is no “apostolic succession” nor is this necessary in the true body of Christ today. For one who despises both Catholicism and Protestantism (as you have expressed) the Orthodox church teaches and observes similar heresies to Roman Catholicism – believing that salvation (not merely sanctification) is a life-long process of “works” and “prayer.” Shockingly, in contradiction to the Scriptures, the Orthodox reject the doctrine that Christ died for the “satisfaction” of our sin. The Word of God expressly declares, “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he [YHWH] hath put him [Christ] to grief” (Isaiah 53:10).
I honestly don’t have time to debate this with you, Marcus, but am posting this for the benefit of those who may be confused by your remarks. The Orthodox Church rejects Roman Catholicism but substitutes its own hierarchy in its place. Perhaps the most bizarre, unbiblical teaching is that of “theosis” which by definition is the false hope of salvation by vain works: “In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is both a transformative process as well as the goal of that process. The goal is the attainment of likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to eastern Orthodox teaching theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through a synergy (or cooperation) between humans’ activities and God’s uncreated energies (or operations).”
For anyone familiar with the New Age, this is a parallel teaching, just cloaked in different language. The process of salvation is not a mystical journey through life which makes us “more like God.” Christians should desire to be conformed to the image of Christ, but this process is sanctification, not a means of attaining godhood or christhood or even eternal life. The truth is that all who have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord (the Son of God) and have repented of their sin (personal and corporate) with the desire to pursue righteousness and receive the free gift of God, which is eternal life, may have FULL ASSURANCE of this gift. It is not necessary to join any particular church, let alone “THE” church, to have the security and benefit of relationship with God in the family of Christ.
Thank you and AMEN, emugene.
Are you saying you’re part of the Orthodox church?
And what does this paragraph mean?
“The same Scriptures that claim to be inspired by God also affirm that it is the Church, not the Scriptures alone, that is the pillar and ground of the truth (see 1 Timothy 3:15). The evil pride that feeds the heresy of “Sola Sciptura, ” will continue to divide Christians until our Lord returns.”
How is “Sola Scriptura” a heresy?
You have a very interesting blog and do a great job of defending prevailing Christian tradition. Your criticisms of Mr. DeYoung’s teaching are very sound. As an Orthodox Christian, I wanted to add a little depth of understanding regarding what the great tribulation really is. The term “great tribulation” is only used three times in the Scriptures, once in Matthew and twice in Revelation. However the word tribulation is used over twenty time in the New Testament to describe the condition of the Church and the Faithful. Many Christians confuse the great tribulation with the events of the Day of the Lord
Heresy is following one’s own choice or opinion instead of divine truth preserved by the Church, so as to cause division among Christians. Because “Sola Scriptura” fosters division and not unity among Christian, it is a heresy. Within the boundaries of Holy Tradition, different opinions on Scriptural revelation are often helpful. Although there are various opinions about origins and eschatology among Orthodox Christians, we remain an undivided family of Faith because we accept the boundaries of Holy Apostolic Tradition.
There are no more apostles. Nor do true believers follow the traditions of men.
That is confusion to say Christians confuse the tribulation and the events of the day of the LORD.
They go hand in hand.
In this world ye shall have tribulation. This is not the great tribulation.
Revelation , “I know your tribulations , to one of the Seven churches in chapters 1-3.
After chapter 3 there is no more mention of these early Jewish only
It is not. He’s deluded. Marc is putting man on a level playing field with God, as if man’s salvation is a collaborative effort. There would be no hope without the risen Christ Jesus. What did Paul say, we’d be “miserable”? He sounds catholic to me. Perhaps he’s the “infallible” pope. LOL!
You are correct. Don’t lose this analysis. Far be it from me that these so-called theological doctors don’t see what we see. The Bible is clear on this matter. We must warn others but since I’m not a doctor of theology, I am dismissed as a heretic.
Your wrong and no way would i believe u over Dr Jimmy.
Can you explain how I’m wrong?
Diana , who is saying you are wrong?
On what matter?
A conerned Christian.
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John , and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men , they marvelled ; and they took knowledge of them , that they had been with Jesus.
No colleges , seminary , no universities. These are not of God.
God has given the comforter as beleivers , and He shall lead you into all Truth.
Anyone who knows their rightly dividing the word know that these claims after Revelation 3 are false.
The Book Of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ is not chronological. The word rapture appears nowhere in the KJV.
Revised translations , like the NIV have removed Lu ‘ -ci – fer from Isaiah 14:12.
Jimmy Deyoung is most likely a false teacher and not saved to begin with.
No honor is ever due to mortal man that teach erroneously.
“The falling away first” is written by the Holy Spirit by hand of the Apostle Paul.
Jimmy either will hear sound doctrine or will fall away from the faith.
We are NOT in the 70th week of Daniel.
Why? Because Christians are still here? Yes. Christ is still saving souls ,
and that means ONLY one thing.
Grace is ongoing , knowing this means go dig in Gods word. Law and grace do not mix. Prophecy unfulfilled means there is no temple in Israel from which animal sacrfice is ongoing today. No peace treaty has been signed by Israel & Arabs because anti-christ is NOT on the world stage. Nor the beast , nor the false prophet. There is no image of the beast completed. No one knows what this image will look like.
People are not hearing this as they should because of men insisting to be scholars and professors. Professor only means one thing: “I Know.”
Well , read the Pauline epistles.
1&2 Timothy 1&2 Thessalonians , these have the scripture , falling away first.
Those departing from the faith , is not the falling away first. These are those who do what the word of God says. They have not the Truth indwelling so they leave and heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears.
Once more , prophetically we are not in the seventieth week of Daniel.
Matthew 24 is all Israel , all tribulation ground.
The church has been taken by the LORD himself as you WILL read in the previously mentioned books.
Jimmy is dead wrong about a pretrib rapture as the feast of Tabernacles and many other proofs in scripture teach otherwise:
I think he did great…women have no pla ce teaching the word of God period. The pope kissed the Koran and sat a buda statue in the supposed place of god..so sad if my grandmother was still alive I know she would have left the unholy catholic church..