I listened to an audio commentary by Jon Courson on the Blue Letter Bible web site.On it he argued that the “falling away” mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 isn’t the great apostasy, but the rapture of the church. (This is a view held by Tommy Ice and Tim LaHaye also.) His argument for this view can be heard in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5. (Found here at about 14 minutes in.) Here is the scripture:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)
According to these verses the gathering together to be with Jesus is the Day of the Lord! And according to Paul, this won’t happen until there is a falling away and the antichrist is revealed. Yet Courson tries to get around this anti-pretribulation teaching by claiming that the falling away is the “departure” of the church from the EARTH, rather than the departure of the church from the FAITH. But according to Strong’s Concordance (found here) the Greek word “apostasia” carries the meaning “falling away, defection, apostasy.” The entry from Vine’s Expository Dictionary conveys the meaning of revolt or rebellion. Yet the Greek expert Courson mentions in his teaching on 2 Thessalonians 2:3, E. Schuyler English, claims it means “departure” and could therefore be referring to the rapture. (English may have been a little biased since he was the Greek scholar used for the Scofield Bible, which popularized the pretribulation position. A scholarly article on this debate can be found here.)
I think it’s obvious that the Courson/English position is wrong because if they are correct, and the word “departure” is referring to the rapture of the church, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would read like this:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him [the rapture], that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a gathering together unto him [the rapture] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Why would Paul try to comfort the Thessalonians concerning their fears about the rapture by letting them know that the rapture won’t come until the rapture comes first!
No. According to Paul, the coming of the Lord to gather his church [the rapture] will come after the apostasy and after the revelation of the antichrist, and the revelation of the antichrist occurs at the opening of the first seal, which is after the beginning of the tribulation. That means that the rapture doesn’t occur before the tribulation, so how can the pretribulation rapture view be true?
THE FAITHFUL CHURCH 
The majority of Christians do not know the apostasy is simply what the apostles say in contrast to what Jesus said. For example, John wrote a Gospel and Revelation, both books contain Jesus’ words. John also wrote his epistles which contain only apostle John’s words. Paul on the other hand wrote the bulk of the new testament but only quoted Jesus in three verses, making Paul the biggest source of apostate ministry. Today there are about 40,000 different ministries which follow Paul’s division from Jesus by setting up elders and selling spiritual goods for money instead of having all believers equal under Jesus and giving freely as Jesus taught. Every ministry other than Jesus’ ministry produces divided loyalties. So we believers should all forsake other ministries and become experts in the Gospel so we can all be one as Jesus taught.
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The Day of The Lord is not the Rapture but the Tribulation period so by taking “the falling away” to mean the departure of the church rather than the church departing from the faith isn’t as nonsensical as you suggest.
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The Day of the Lord (or the Day of Christ) is the day immediately after the tribulation when the sun and moon are darkened and Jesus gathers his church to be with him in the air. After this the wrath of God is poured out on the earth.
“Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.(Isaiah 13:9-11)
“The SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” (Joel 2:31)
“Shall not the day of the LORD be DARKNESS, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?” (Amos 5:20)
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the SUN BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29-31)
“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN BECAME BLACK AS SACKCLOTH OF HAIR, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17)
Each of these scriptures describes the same event–the Day of the Lord. And each of them describe it as a day of DARKNESS. Jesus said this day would happen “after the tribulation.” (Matthew 24:29) He also gathers the church on that day, as described above in 2 Thes. 2:1-3 and Matthew 24:31. This gathering of believers to be with him in the air happens after the Antichrist has been revealed and after the church has departed from the faith.
Why do you say the Day of the Lord is the tribulation period?
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Hi Diana,
I think you are on the right track here. I would caution that the man of sin is only one aspect of the last antichrist. St. John tells us that there will be many antichrists, but his description of the last antichrist in the Book of Revelation is of an unholy trinity of two men and the devil. The term “man of sin” used in 2 Thessalonians is also used to describe Judas, Because both Judas and the bishop of Rome rejected the conciliar governance of the Church guided by God, they are the greatest of apostates.
Regarding the Day of the Lord, we should consider this a time specific to the actions of God. The Day of the Lord, like the Days of Creation is not limited to 24 hours. All the events of judgment and the resurrection harvest spoken of in the Holy Scriptures will happen during the 1,335 days that constitutes the Day of the Lord (see Daniel 12:12).
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Hi Mark,
I don’t think I understand this phrase:
“Because both Judas and the bishop of Rome rejected the conciliar governance of the Church guided by God, they are the greatest of apostates.”
Could you explain what this means?
Generally speaking, I believe when the scripture speaks of a day, it means a day. Look at Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks.
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Hi Diana,
Judas was the first antichrist and the bishops of Rome have all been antichrists since giving themselves the blasphemous title of “vicar of Christ” and distorting the clear understanding of the Holy Spirit as stated in the original Nicene Creed. If the bishops of Rome had not embarked upon their prideful and evil path causing the Great Schism of 1054, we would not have thousands of denominations and sects today.
Regarding the word day (Hebrew yom) it can mean the daylight portion of a 24 hour period, the 24 hour period of time between sunsets, or a period of time specific to an action or event, such as you were a good athlete in your day. Genesis 2:4 confirms that the days of Creation are specific to the creative actions of God. The Day of the Lord is a future time period specific to God’s judgments and the resurrection harvest.
I shared my understanding of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy on your blog entry so titled. I would be interested to read your thoughts about it.
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How does that work out? The rapture (our gathering together with Him) can’t take place until the rapture first happens. In other words, we can’t get raptured, until after we get raptured….(referring to 2 Thess. 2:1-3). Apparently some people are just not good with math, cause this doesn’t add up!
The extremely sad part about the whole issue is that there must be a Great turning away from Christ prior to the rapture, removing the imminent part of it (nothing needs to happen first). This apostasy is yet to come. Jesus addresses this exact issue in Mark 4:17, those who are not prepared for tribulation and persecution will “immediately stumble”. Only a pretrib believer will be able to mock another with the words, “Where is the promise of His coming?”(1 Peter) A post-tribber doesn’t buy into an early removal and would not be unaffected by this taunt.
The Chinese leaders who taught the pretrib view in the early 1900’s and lived through the purge of Christians in Red China when interviewed, were remorseful that they had ever taught the pretib doctrine. They wished that they had rather spent their efforts preparing them for persecution and tribulation that the Word has assigned to every believer, John 16:33, 2 Tim. 3:12. Unfortunately, they saw so many of their people, “Immediately stumble” as Jesus promised. Today America is ripe for history to repeat itself. Are you prepared for tribulation?
How you view eschatology is a backbone to all of what you believe, even concerning the Gospel and salvation. It really is serious. It also defines how you conduct your life.
For example: Lets take Luke 21:36. “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
If your view is pretrib, you see the word escape and think rapture naturally. In fact some promoters of the view like Perry Stone consider this verse to be the most supportive verse for the view. You know that you are saved and therefore you will get raptured so you can escape all these things that will be coming to pass, and you move on. This seems to be the sum of the consideration of this verse.
If however if your view is post-trib you know as well that there is indeed most terrible things coming to pass upon the earth. You see that the way to escape them all is to pray always as commanded in this verse as to be counted worthy so that when that time arises to be confronted with those terrible things God will keep you from that hour of temptation. You understand that Rev. 3:10’s promise of being kept from that hour also has contingencies that the church in Philadelphia fulfilled as well.
When considering your view contemplate these questions surrounding this verse Luke 21:36 as well. It has the command of praying always. Why would that be necessary if it is the rapture? Do you need to continually pray to be saved so you can escape? Why is worthiness an issue? Does works somehow pertain to salvation all of a sudden? We are not saved by works, but by grace… Eph 2:8,9. Have you been “praying always” concerning this issue? Why or why not? That would be sad to be taken out by the first wave of all that is coming upon the Earth just because you have never lifted up the issue in prayer that we are commanded to pray always concerning.
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My view is post-trib and pre-wrath. Would that describe you, boldncourageous?
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No, my view is solely post-trib. However I don’t know that my view fits the mainstream view. I’ve never studied it. Just the scripture, and of course, I was taught the pretrib view by man in many mainstream churches growing up. The idea of pre-wrath appeals to those who have been well indoctrinated into the pretrib thinking. This is because the lenses that the pretrib doctrine provide run deep. Consider the passage that “we are not assigned to wrath.” That isn’t the end of the story… we are not assigned to wrath… BUT to salvation and forever living with Him. It’s not temporal but eternal. Rev. 14:9-11 tells us exactly what God’s wrath is… it is forever torment of fire and brimstone… that isn’t temporal either, but eternal. The pretrib doctrine really tries to make this issue temporal when it is not. Most pre-wrath people are ex-pretribbers.
It is important that we have enough oil in our lamp to make it to the end. The unwise virgins didn’t foresee the need for oil that would extend their expectations of when the bridegroom would come. Sad they were at the door and told, “i never knew you.” Rev. 16:15 is at the end and Jesus states that He is Still coming like a thief for those who are keeping watch.
Pre-wrath have the expectation of having to endure great tribulation, but pretribbers do not. Therefore my attention falls on the pretrib doctrine because Jesus promises that those who are unprepared for tribulation and persecution will immediately stumble… Mark 4;17. The great “falling away” must take place prior to our gathering together with Him… 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Only a pretribber can be mocked or mock another with the taunt, “Where is the promise of his coming?” (1 Peter 3) To a post-trib believer it is a mute point.
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Do you consider the tribulation period to cover the entire period of the seals, trumpets, and vials?
Where do you see the rapture occurring in the book of Revelation?
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The book of Revelation is very simple to understand when you apply just one key. This one key is not applied by the pretrib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, and most post-trib views. However it is not entirely unheard of. There is several types of proofs that are applied to understanding prophesy, there is subjective proof, historical proof, scientific proof, and scriptural truth. Scriptural truth has the most clout.
Also the scripture always gives the “when” of the rapture in every reference. Each of these scriptures has a key to the understanding of when it will take place.
Matt. 24:29-36 tells us,”immediately after the tribulation…”
1 Cor. 15:51,52 tells us , “at the last trump..”
Jesus tells us that he will come as a thief in the night, Matt. 24:42-44, and several other Scriptures make reference to, “as a thief”: 2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thess. 5:2, Rev. 16:15
2 Peter 3:10 tells us that the heavens will be destroyed with a great noise, as well as the earth.
Rev. 16:15, Jesus is STILL coming as a thief, and it states this fact right before the last vial or bowl judgment.
1 Thess. 5:2 tells us that the “Day of the Lord comes as a thief…”
Here’s the key to understand the book of Revelations.
Many people see the 1 Cor. 15:51, 52 reference and see the correlation between the 7th trumpet and they mystery that is both mentioned concerning in Corinthians and Rev. 10:7. The mystery concept is only mentioned in these two references in the New Testament concern end time prophesy, nowhere else. Therefore, it is easy to see a place for the rapture at this point. Some consider that the this and notice that the passage is in the middle of the book and ideas start materializing around the thoughts of mid-trib or something of that nature. But take a look at the passage…
Rev. 11:15, “…The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” The nature of the trumpet seen in this verse tells us that God’s kingdom has definitely come and there is no other. In other words there cannot be the beast making war with the saints after this point. Yet if you believe the following Chapters are chronological in time then there is an error concerning the passages concerning the mark of the beast and the harvest at the end of the age… Rev.13,14.
The key is that the trumpets and the vial are one in the same.
Chapter 10 of Rev. is a prophesy within a prophesy, and it is told to basically tell John that he will prophesy again. However, John is not known for prophesy. As far as I know, scripture does not indicate that John ever prophesied. That doesn’t mean he didn’t, it’s just not recorded. Yet here in Rev. 10:11 it makes a point of saying that he would prophesy “again.” I suggest that the prophesy ends with the 7th trumpet at the end of Chapter 11, and the same prophesy is prophesied “again” from Chapters 12 through 16.
When you see this parallel, you will notice the parallels between the individual trumpets and vial/bowls. You will see a clear distinction between the time of the tribulation, and God’s judgments. You will see that the last trumpet and the last bowl have the same commonality… the rapture…1 Cor. 15:51,52, Rev. 16:15. The 5th seal is the same as the saints killed for not receiving the mark, and the 144,000 Jews are listed pointed out in both prophesies. Wrath starts and is specifically mention when it starts in both prophesies. You will also note that the sequence of events are in the same order. Both prophesies support each other and do not contradict. Yes one may say a third of the seas will turn to blood (2nd trumpet Rev. 8:8), and the other (2nd vial) may simply state the seas turn to blood (Rev. 16:4), many assume that this includes ALL the seas, and miss the connection that its only a third.
Another point that supports this view is the nature of the first verse in Rev. 12 concerning the sign in the heavens. Larson does a great job in his documentary, “The Star of Bethlehem” that is shown widely in many denominations around Christmas time (also available on amazon). The nature of the time of the Star correlates with this fulfillment as well, and the prophesy of Rev. 12 begins with the birth of Christ.
It is important to note the difference between tribulation and the judgments of God. Tribulation comes from our fellow man, while judgment comes from God. When the wrath of God comes, the change from tribulation to wrath is specifically noted in both the trumpets and the vials.
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The rapture is pre-tribulation and it is written in the Bible. We are the Philadelphia church and the saints that come back with Jesus at His second coming. Noah’s ark is an example and so is Lot’s family being rescued from Gomorrah. The Bible is clear on this and it is the only source I go by. The falling away is when God puts the last believer in the Book of Life. The rapture I feel is when God steps in and protects Israel from being destroyed. Then the Anti-Christ steps in and takes credit for it saying that he was the one who took “the haters” away. The Great Tribulation starts.
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I’m sorry to have to tell you, but there are SEVEN churches. Philadelphia is the SIXTH. The Philadelphia age is past (they have been kept from the hour of trial because they have died and are present with the Lord. ) We are now in the age of Laodicea, the lukewarm church who believes they will never have to suffer. Neither Noah or Lot ever left the earth, nor were they “snatched” away. In fact, Noah waited in the ark for seven days before it rained, waiting for the animals to enter. And Lot, well the angels had to basically drag him out of Sodom. And instead of following the angel’s direction, in fear he begged to go to Zoar, and ended up getting drunk and being raped by his daughters. Yikes, I hope that isn’t a picture of the rapture.
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p.s. Where is the Pretribulation rapture written in the Bible? Please give me one verse that states that the rapture happens before the tribulation. The saints that come back with Jesus as His Second Coming are those who have already died in Him. Listen to Paul: “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS, God will bring WITH HIM.” The falling away is the apostasy of much of the Church (in connection with the revelation of the man of sin). The Rapture is when God steps in to save His people prior to His wrath being poured out on those who persecuted them during the great tribulation.
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I applaud you, Sister, for being bold enough to tackle this one. People have so been indoctrinated with the doctrines of men (or should I say woman) that they seem believe it must be in the Bible. I wonder if the pretrib rapture concept isn’t the deception that “if it were possible” should deceive the very elect.
You dare to speak against the doctrines of the false prophetess, Margaret McDonald, and you are branded as a heretic. As the post of Spet. 27, 14 says “It’s in the Bible” Really? I used to believe that too until I read the Bible for what the Bible says and not what LaHaye or Lindsay say, or Margaret MacDonald, John Nelson Darby or C I Scoffield. The first Bible the rapture appeared in was Scoffield’s .
I find it interesting that for centuries the Christian Church knew nothing nor did they teach this pretrib rapture stuff. Christians outside America who’ve not been contaminated with the luke-warm dribble poor excuse for Christianity that we have here in America do not believe in the pretrib rapture either.
Why is that? Do folks ever take their rose colored Hal Lindsay shades off long enough to read the Word of God??
A look of Thess . shows this: Christ coming, clouds, angels and trumpets. Nothing else, not when, or anything yet we’ve built an entire doctrine that will get you tarred and feathered and run out of many so called evangelical churches if you don’t espouse it. “The Rapture” not just that, but “the pretribulational rapture” yet where’s the evidence? Now go to Matthew chapter 24 where the disciples asked specifically about when He would return and what would be the signs of His coming.
Please note what Christ says and it’s not the words of man. The first 26 verses tell about a whole bunch of diffn’t things that are happening BEFORE Jesus comes. Now look at vs. 29. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” now if seems odd that Jesus should use these words if he wasn’t referring to a time of tribulation different from what we’ve all experienced down through the ages in ordinary living. Now pay attention, the signs in the heaven BEFORE he comes. We’ve not experienced that yet, you know, unless you subscribe to the false teachings of E. G. White. Now see vs. 30 & 31. What do we see? Jesus coming to gather the saints, clouds, angels, trumpets! Wow, just like Thess. and it says it’s when??? AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.
Friends, the scripture says to let God be true and men called liars. God is true, He doesn’t lie. The truth is in the scripture not someone’s false interpretation. The rapture can’t be this “secret” even that sends planes falling from the sky and cars careening into each other. This is the biggest lie. It may sell books for LaHaye and others. It’s a money maker but it’s deceiving millions.
I remember being a kid thinking that OK, if this rapture happens, then I have seven years to get saved, and if not, well then so what? Thank God that I was saved but I believe millions have been sold this lie thinking they may have a second chance in the 7 years of tribulation. Peter in his epistle makes it clear this is not so but when the Lord comes, that’s it. No more time!!
In fact look at Rev. 1: 7. It says the Lord Jesus is “coming in the clouds” Sound familiar? Thess and Matt 24 also say he’s coming in the clouds. Dear Pretribber, Rev. 1:7 makes it clear you’ve been fed and swallowed a lie if you believe in a secret rapture. Rev. 1:7 says every eye shall see Him and if the Bible says every, it means every.
II Thess. 2 says “Let no man deceive you” Many are deceived. There is a time of falling away coming. How could a pretrib rapture be misconstrued to being a “falling away” In the “rapture” you don’t fall do you? No you’re caught up, so that’s not a falling away.
The falling away is happening before our very eyes. You been to church lately? It’s a sea of grey heads unless you’re at some “campus” where the program is a nightclub act, a production, a place to have your ears tickled. The churches truly preaching the gospel and living the life of separation unto Christ are few and far between and growing fewer and farther apart all the time.
Read Romans 11. The time of the Gentiles is winding down and God’s attention is already turned toward the apple of His eye.
May God reveal His perfect way of peace to you as you study HIS WORD!
Maranatha!
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You all mention great points and scripture however, I have yet to see anyone who speaks of the “reason” why we (gentiles) are raptured in the the 1st place. We are the BRIDE of Christ brothers and sisters! We aren’t just taken out of the earth “just because!” Its when you Search ALL of the bible for clues its then that you will see the REAL reason for our departure as in Rev. 7:9 when John sees the multitude IN Heaven who were given white linen robes (the bride) who had come OUT of the tribulation. (debunking the post trib rapture) There is no reason for Christ to “take anyone to heaven when he comes back at the end of the tribulation to FIGHT with His saints! Rev. 19:7 speaks of the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb HAS come.” Where His WIFE HAS made herself ready and she HAD BEEN granted to wear fine linen.
If you gain the knowledge of God’s chosen people Israel and what that means and then study the ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and ALL the parts of a the Wedding you will discover the beauty, love and grace of our Bridegroom and what HIS plans are for the Bride/Church of this world.
Rev 19:9 speaks of those who are CALLED to the Marriage SUPPER, (not the WEDDING, this has already happened in Heaven during the great tribulation) these are 2 different events therefore there are TWO different groups of souls! (Christs Bride= those who accept Him as their Messiah and His CHOSEN People = Israel who are still waiting for his coming!
In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking a warning to his chosen people of ISREAL in verse 15, Telling them to flee to the mountains AFTER the abomination of desolation is seen. There are many verses throughout the bible telling of how these people will be cared for by God (just as the Israelites in the desert.) the verses go on warning for them not to come out of hiding when they hear of Christ in the desert (verse 26)
When you have the mindset that Jesus was speaking to TWO groups, both the unbelieving Jews and His Bride you will start to see Matthew 24 come alive!
There is So much to this chapter that many just skim through it. It must be chewed on completely and fully!
Matthew 24:37 Jesus tells the BRIDE that His coming will be as in the days of Noah. There will be eating and drinking and Marrying, Luke 17:28 states that they will even be planting and building before the son of man comes. (thus 2 men planting, one taken the other left)
These descriptions are nothing like what the end of the tribulation will be, in fact these times will be so horrible that there will be very few who survive much less marrying and planting and building! If there is a post trib rapture, find it in Rev. 19:11 on……… You wont find anything of the sort! You will find however the armies of saints clothed in “fine white linen” just as the Bride of Christ in Rev. 7:9 who had come OUT of the tribulation.
These come BACK with Christ on white horses to fight in the battle of Armageddon. This is hardly a time when Christ would come FOR his BRIDE! This is however the time when He will gather is “elect” His chosen Israel who he has cared for in the wilderness throughout the tribulation and bring them to the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Please study the 144,000 sealed Servants and the Marriage Supper Parable in Matthew 22 where Servants are sent out to gather souls for the Marriage Dinner. Also the custom to have “two witnesses” who seal the Marriage in a Jewish Wedding. (hence the 2 Witnesses of the last 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation)
Study all these and you will begin to see the Bible and these end times in a whole new light.
We ARE the Bride of Christ, we are NOT “just” raptured. We are awaiting His return because He has gone forth to PREPARE a place for us. He will come again, “suddenly” to bring us to “WHERE HE IS,”
He IS in Heaven!
When he comes back “fully” he will “set his feet” on the Mt. of Olives.
You all speak if a the great falling away first, do you all have your heads in the sand? When you look at the world as a whole and over many years (as God does) there are very few who are truly “seeking HIM.” There were 6 million Jews killed by Hittler, we have beheading daily and many who are in prison at this moment for their faith in Christ!. America has changed God’s Holy Law of Marriage for a mere 2% of its Gay population! We have slaughtered over 7 million of our preborn babies, sold their body parts secretly and made it a law to be “a woman’s choice!”
If this isn’t a “great falling away” I don’t know what is!
I pray that our Lord will reveal ALL truth to you and that you will search the WHOLE Bible for these truths
God bless you all
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Dan the Baptist,
Thank you for the insight on Revelation 1:7! When Jesus comes again he will come in the clouds and every eye shall see him. This is what the angels said in Acts 1:11 also.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and A CLOUD received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)
Behold, he COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7)
It will be a time of wailing for the people of the earth and everyone will see Jesus. This is what is described in Revelation 6.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, FALL ON US AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:12-17)
This is the same scene described by Jesus:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall SEE the Son of man coming IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)
How does 1 Thessalonians 4 describe anything different than what is being described in these other verses? Paul was just trying to reassure the church that the dead in Christ will be included in the rapture also. It doesn’t mean there’s an invisible gathering before he comes in the clouds:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
Also, Revelation 20:4 says the tribulation saints who were martyred will be included in the first resurrection! So if the first resurrection occurs at the rapture (as described in 1 Thes. 4:16-17) before the tribulation, how would that be possible?
No. The pre-trib invisible rapture theory is a false doctrine that has been hoisted upon the church. It offers false hope to the saved and unsaved. It’s an addition to the Word of God, and I’m concerned that the curses of Revelation 22:18-19 may come upon those who hold fast to this false teaching:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19)
Thank you for the encouraging words and insights, Dan.
Blessings to you,
Diana
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Diana,
If we believe that the “first resurrection” spoken of in Rev 20:4 is in fact the FIRST resurrection than what would you call the resurrection of Jesus? Or the many saints in Matthew 27:52-53 who were raised after Jesus.
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And Peter raised a woman from the dead in Acts 9:36-42.
There were many many more resurrections throughout the bible, do your research.
The FIRST resurrection obviously spans thousands of years, not just one day.
ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).
There is a “resurrection of life” the resurrection spoken of at the end of the tribulation and a “resurrection of damnation.” that will happen AFTER the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth.
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just (Luke 14:14).
There is so much more to the bible than most care to search out. We can’t and shouldn’t read a verse and stop there thinking thats all there is to it. There are “clues” all throughout the bible in every topic. We should all be asking God for guidance and HIS truth when searching the bible for answers.
God Bless
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Hi Dawn! Thank you for commenting! Concerning the “first resurrection,” Rev. 20:5 calls the resurrection of the tribulation saints at the return of Jesus to rapture the church the “first resurrection.” That wasn’t my terminology.
Blessings, Diana
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You all mention great points and scripture however, I have yet to see anyone who speaks of the “reason” why we (gentiles) are raptured in the the 1st place. We are the BRIDE of Christ brothers and sisters! We aren’t just taken out of the earth “just because!” Its when you Search ALL of the bible for clues its then that you will see the REAL reason for our departure as in Rev. 7:9 when John sees the multitude IN Heaven who were given white linen robes (the bride) who had come OUT of the tribulation. (debunking the post trib rapture) There is no reason for Christ to “take anyone to heaven when he comes back at the end of the tribulation to FIGHT with His saints! Rev. 19:7 speaks of the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb HAS come.” Where His WIFE HAS made herself ready and she HAD BEEN granted to wear fine linen.
If you gain the knowledge of God’s chosen people Israel and what that means and then study the ancient Jewish Wedding Customs and ALL the parts of a the Wedding you will discover the beauty, love and grace of our Bridegroom and what HIS plans are for the Bride/Church of this world.
Rev 19:9 speaks of those who are CALLED to the Marriage SUPPER, (not the WEDDING, this has already happened in Heaven during the great tribulation) these are 2 different events therefore there are TWO different groups of souls! (Christs Bride= those who accept Him as their Messiah and His CHOSEN People = Israel who are still waiting for his coming!
In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking a warning to his chosen people of ISREAL in verse 15, Telling them to flee to the mountains AFTER the abomination of desolation is seen. There are many verses throughout the bible telling of how these people will be cared for by God (just as the Israelites in the desert.) the verses go on warning for them not to come out of hiding when they hear of Christ in the desert (verse 26)
When you have the mindset that Jesus was speaking to TWO groups, both the unbelieving Jews and His Bride you will start to see Matthew 24 come alive!
There is So much to this chapter that many just skim through it. It must be chewed on completely and fully!
Matthew 24:37 Jesus tells the BRIDE that His coming will be as in the days of Noah. There will be eating and drinking and Marrying, Luke 17:28 states that they will even be planting and building before the son of man comes. (thus 2 men planting, one taken the other left)
These descriptions are nothing like what the end of the tribulation will be, in fact these times will be so horrible that there will be very few who survive much less marrying and planting and building! If there is a post trib rapture, find it in Rev. 19:11 on……… You wont find anything of the sort! You will find however the armies of saints clothed in “fine white linen” just as the Bride of Christ in Rev. 7:9 who had come OUT of the tribulation.
These come BACK with Christ on white horses to fight in the battle of Armageddon. This is hardly a time when Christ would come FOR his BRIDE! This is however the time when He will gather is “elect” His chosen Israel who he has cared for in the wilderness throughout the tribulation and bring them to the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”
Please study the 144,000 sealed Servants and the Marriage Supper Parable in Matthew 22 where Servants are sent out to gather souls for the Marriage Dinner. Also the custom to have “two witnesses” who seal the Marriage in a Jewish Wedding. (hence the 2 Witnesses of the last 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation)
Study all these and you will begin to see the Bible and these end times in a whole new light.
We ARE the Bride of Christ, we are NOT “just” raptured. We are awaiting His return because He has gone forth to PREPARE a place for us. He will come again, “suddenly” to bring us to “WHERE HE IS,”
He IS in Heaven!
When he comes back “fully” he will “set his feet” on the Mt. of Olives.
You all speak if a the great falling away first, do you all have your heads in the sand? When you look at the world as a whole and over many years (as God does) there are very few who are truly “seeking HIM.” There were 6 million Jews killed by Hittler, we have beheading daily and many who are in prison at this moment for their faith in Christ!. America has changed God’s Holy Law of Marriage for a mere 2% of its Gay population! We have slaughtered over 7 million of our preborn babies, sold their body parts secretly and made it a law to be “a woman’s choice!”
If this isn’t a “great falling away” I don’t know what is!
I pray that our Lord will reveal ALL truth to you and that you will search the WHOLE Bible for these truths
God bless you all
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Hi Dawn I think your comment is the closest to reality with a few mistakes.
I do believe Jesus is talking to the church and the Jews in Matthew 24. I will try to build the story line leading into it.
“For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.”
I Thessalonians 5:2-4 NKJV
Paul here is telling us not to be overtaken by this so it goes without saying the church will still be here. Now I will transition into Matthew 24 Paul wrote (Sudden destruction comes on them as “labor pains” So this connects to Matt 24
“For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains.”
Matthew 24:7-8 NET
There’s that word again, birth pains. After this event the next event is persecution of the saints.
““Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. But the person who endures to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13 NET
As you can see we have an endurance test that precedes the time of Jacob’s trouble or Time of trouble such as never was. So this is weeding out of the Christians who are ashamed of his name. Compare that with
“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.”
2 Thessalonians 2:3 NET
There’s that word rebellion again. There has to be an anti-christian rebellion and not just a secular rebellion… This is specifically talking about the church. The heathen will always be around. This is also seen in the first few horsemen
“And another horse, fiery red, came out, and the one who rode it was granted permission to take peace from the earth, so that people would butcher one another, and he was given a huge sword.”
Revelation 6:4 NET
So as you can see it all matches up. We are taken out before the Trumpets start but after the rebellion that leads to the rise of anti-Christ is revealed. People will slaughter each other like animals and in the gospels where it says “nation shall rise against nation” the Greek word used there is “ethnos” or in English ethnicity. So yes we will be here for the biggest racial war of all time and this rise of nationalism is starting it.
So hang tight!!! Were not outta the woods until we start seeing the world crumble! We are saved OUT of triblulation not FROM Tribulation. After these things take place the 70th week of Daniel will commence and the times of the Gentiles will be over.
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Hi Dawn!
Concerning the tribulation, I call the time when the Four Horsemen begin to ride the beginning of the Tribulation. Christians are martyred during this time period (3 1/2 years) because they refuse the Mark of the Beast.
Immediately after this time of tribulation, the sky is rolled back like a scroll and the Jews are sealed so they are protected as they go through the time of God’s wrath. (Rev. 9:4) Then the dead in Christ rise first [the “first resurrection” as per Rev. 20:5] and Jesus gathers the Church–both the believers who remain alive yet, and those who were just resurrected, to be with him forever.
After this, the wrath of God is poured out upon those on the earth who have rejected the Gospel. The second resurrection [for the final judgment of the unsaved] is at the end of the thousand years of Christ’s reign on earth.
Is this similar to your timeline?
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I know that L.A. Marzulli also holds this view. I believe based on what his research is about (i.e . Fallen angels, nephilim etc…) That people will be greatly deceived including “Christians”, or at least many that profess to be Christians. There will be a great falling away possibly because these fallen angels will pose as extraterrestrials and say that they were the original “gods” if this world. They will do many signs and wonders and will deceive many. I could add that extraterrestrials are a lie from the start because evolution is not possible because we are not able to pass through the firmament as described in Genesis. This view is balked at by even my family but I feel God has brought it to my attention as I have asked Him for knowledge and wisdom. His knowledge and wisdom, not man’s.
Im not eccentric. Im not a conspiracy theorist. I’ve been a full time law enforcement officer for 19 years. I help people with demonic issues in my spare time. It’s real folks. If you knew my life story and me personally, you would know how real all of this is. Pray and ask God for his knowledge and wisdom. He WILL give it. I promise.
We also need to start reading the books if Enoch. The secrets of Enoch and especially the Book of Enoch. Also read the books of Adam and Eve. There is an app that has these available for free. They will bless you and open your eyes a bit more to the true nature of this world. Remember that Satan comes to lie, steal and destroy. I won’t add more details as to what has been shown to me but I will pray that God opens the eyes of all who read this article and my comment
In Christ
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Hi Diana. I have been very blessed with your great insight.
Please send me the sholarly article that you mentioned. The link seems to have a problem.
Thank you
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Thank you Moses! Here is the link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s3nFcBu_QbQkKCKtBCvJfp79ihhC8igl/view I updated the link in the article also. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Blessings, Diana
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Thank you Diana for the prompt response.
Now, I have a few questions regarding who will make it to heaven, and/or who will enter the millenial reign of Christ (the kingdom). But first a little bit about me. I am a pastor in Uganda (www.lat.church), and I became a post-tribulationist a few months ago after, like a child, believing the simple to understand words of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31.
Now, according to Matthew 7:21-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:1-7 and Galatians 5:19-21, Christians who practice sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1) Is ‘entering the kingdom’ synonymous with ‘inheriting the kingdom’ and going to heaven? I would like to believe so.
2) At the (post-tribulation) rapture, what happens to Christians who are not to enter the kingdom? Will they at that instant die and go to hell? If so, it would seem ‘unfair’ on God to banish away those Christians and yet leave around some unbelievers. Unless entering the kingdom of God means entirely something else.
Please help.
NB: I hope you won’t mind more questions when they arise from this discussion. I really believe you can help me understand the truth so I can better feed the flock of God under my care.
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Hi Pastor Moses,
I’m sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. (I have a large and demanding family.) I really don’t know who will be populating the earth during the millennial kingdom. I know that there will be Christians who have died and will be resurrected to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. I also know that the Jews will look upon him “whom they pierced” (Zech. 12) and come to Christ. They will not be part of the rapture of the church, but they will be marked and preserved while the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth. (Rev. 7:2-8, Rev. 9:4) They will enter into the millennium as normal humans who can have children, so I assume that their children will populate the earth during that time.
Also, the Lord knows which saints to rapture…he specifically chooses certain believers who have been faithful to Him to go to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. These are the wise virgins. So he must also know those who call him Lord, yet have not been faithful to Him. His wrath is poured out on them. These are the foolish virgins.
I don’t think the foolish virgins (apostate Christians) will immediately die. They will go through a series of judgments (along with unbelievers) and then some or all will finally die at Armageddon. Even though they are not dead, the scripture says they will not repent. (Rev. 9:20-21) (Think of “Christians” who support abortion, homosexual marriage, or get involved in contemplative prayer. They could easily be included in this list.)
I’m not sure what is meant by “all” in Rev. 19:17-18, 21). Does it mean that ALL people who worship the Antichrist will die? Maybe there are some Gentiles who will not take the mark and will survive. I’m not sure.
Perhaps the millennium would not be a time of peace and prosperity if it were populated with false teachers and messengers who carry his name, but resist and contradict his Word. He didn’t rapture these false Christians, marry them, change them into immortals, or give them any authority to rule and reign, so why would he allow them to bring their resistance and rebellion into the millennium?
It is supposed to be a time of goodness and peace when Satan won’t be allowed to deceive until the end. Maybe that is why unfaithful Christians will die under the wrath of God. They are not really Christians. They carry the name of Christ, but they also add to or take away from the Word, and they don’t “rightly divide the Word of truth.”
They are the worst kind of person–the lukewarm who blend Christ’s teachings with the teachings of the world. Jesus said it would be better to be hot or cold. (Rev. 3:16-17) He would rather that someone was a complete believer–or a complete unbeliever. The mixture is confusing and it brings shame to the name of God. Think about how compromised Christians who supported slavery, colonial abuses, or Nazism have brought shame to the name of Jesus!
I pray that I will not be a lawless “worker of iniquity” who is greedy and uncaring about the “least of these.” This seems to be the measurement Christ uses in his judgment. If we are faithful to Jesus and his Word, we are transformed with the evidence of a new heart which is compassionate and kind to others.
“Pure and undefiled (not blended with anything dirty) religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, AND TO KEEP ONESELF UNSPOTTED FROM THE WORLD.” (James 1:27) It has to be both compassion and purity–keeping ourselves from the unscriptural beliefs of the world.
I visited your website and completely agreed with your last post. Too many pastors are not warning their congregations. Thank you for being a faithful shepherd who wants to feed your flock with the truth!
Blessings,
Diana
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Thank you so much Diana.
I am now going to read your book. In this season, it looks like God wants me to have your blog as my bible school!
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I try to keep an open mind about end time matters. Unlike everything else in the Bible they haven’t happened yet, so I try not to get too dogmatic about it. I do have a real issue with some of the discussion points on this thread, however. Saying that you are worried about pretribers being the first to apostate is the same as someone saying because you believe in post tribe you won’t become an apostate. The idea of apostasy is not about your belief in post or pre trib. The tribulation is going to be hell if we are here for it. I don’t think that post tribs will have a leg up over pre tribs. When you’re starving to death (and even post tribs will be) foreknowledge is of little help.Both will be at God’s mercy.
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I hope more folks will find your insights and blog here in Oct. 2020. I have no doubt that we are in the time of sorrows and trial as mentioned in Isaiah 26: 19-21. This also indicates how soon the rapture is. We don’t have to guess at pre – mid – post rapture timing as HE in HIS mercy has given us the “servant” in Matthew 24: 45-46 to help decipher the promised book of truth to be open for our final days at daniel11truth. For encouragement, Sister Sabine shares her wonderful insight in these final hours at https://sabineshares.wordpress.com/2020/10/12/caught-in-the-act-or-a-pharisaic-set-up-his-graceful-hand-extended-still/#more-7751 Thanks for the blog and allowing my post.
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